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The FireWire Conundrum

I love FireWire.

At least I used to, before my beliefs were shattered. A bit of background. I've been an Apple enthusiast since I took out an HFC loan to buy my first Apple IIe in 1982. Since then, I've owned or used just about every Mac Apple has made. And, I've worked in environments where everyone around me used Macs also (mostly marketers and designers). I currently use an Apple MacBook Pro 17" laptop and someone at the office had the temerity to suggest that FireWire 800 was no faster than FireWire 400. "Pshaw, that just isn't so", I thought. Not only did Steve Jobs tell me that I would love my first PowerBook G3 with sparkling new IEEE1394b connector, but LaCie also told me that my new triple-interface hard drive would make everything twice as fast. After all, 800 is twice as big as 400...right?

So, I set off to prove my co-worker was dead wrong. I hooked up my LaCie triple-threat drive to my MacBook with the FW800 cable and dragged a 5.42GB folder from 'Book to LaCie while monitoring the sweep second hand on my Doxa dive watch. This "write" took 244 seconds. I then dragged it back and this "read" took 351 seconds. (I'll dispense with calculating the mb/s transfer rates, because it's easy for everyone reading this blog to relate to seconds). I then dismounted the LaCie and switched to the FireWire 400 connection and repeated the write and read tests. To my amazement, the "write" took 246 seconds, and the "read" took 296 seconds - actually FASTER than the FireWire 800 test.

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot?!!

The only reason I spend more money for the triple-interface LaCie was to take advantage of the faster transfer speeds of the FireWire 800. And now, I find, that it is no better.

Now, to be fair, this was a single test. It needs to be repeated to verify. Also, different file types make a HUGE difference in transfer speed. This folder what chock full of .ai, .pdf, .psd, and .tif files of varying sizes.

I lay disillusioned. I always learned that FireWire was for data. USB was for keyboards. Now I learn that FireWire is for chumps. So sad when technology goes wrong.

Stay tuned for a repeat of my test to see if I'm just a bozo marketing guy trying to "be technical" or if this is repeatable and something in the hard drive or MacBook is limiting the raw speed of the FireWire 800 protocol. My next test will also include USB2.0 as well just so my Drobo can laugh at my old Seagate and LaCie drives sitting next to it in my home office. Anyone have the same experience?

Read More In: Hardware

The DRI Team shares about Drobo and data storage, plus exciting news and happenings at Data Robotics, Inc.


Discussion:    Add a Comment | Comments 1-12 of 12 | Latest Comment

April 24, 2007 4:11 PM

Unfortunately, there are some real problems with your testing methods. You are copying back and forth to the internal drive of your MacBook -- that is a 2.5" drive, maybe a 5400 RPM one at that, and so it's quite likely that it is the limiting factor in your testing. I can't say why specifically that the one FW800 test is taking longer, but in general FW 800 is faster than FW 400, which is faster than USB 2.0 (which is rated at 480 Mbits/sec, but it's not REALLY a protocol that is optimized for block data transfer like Firewire is). Have a look at this test on BareFeats, for example: http://www.barefeats.com/usb2.html Which does a comparison of the SAME drive using FW800, FW400, and USB 2.0. See that FW 800 is substantially faster. The only way you can test speed is to read/write directly to the drive (you could use the UNIX 'mkfile' command, or any general writing utility -- IOZone is good for this). Copying to/from your internal drive may well just test the transfer speed of the internal drive. One other thing that's important to note -- often FW800 devices will not be faster than FW 400 devices. This is mainly because few drives themselves are fast enough to saturate the FW 400 bus, which can carry about 40 MB/sec. Today's faster drives can do 40-60 MB/sec in the right situations with the right cache for sequential transfer so they are just a bit faster than FW 400. But drives that are > 2 years old (with 2 MB caches) are typically slower. Anyway... Drobo looks like a good product, and I find it very interesting (though I just bought a ReadyNAS last week with 4x750 GB drives)... it would be nice at its price point to have a FW800 option as I'm assuming that with 3 or 4 drives in there it *should* be able to push more than the ~18-30 MB/sec that USB 2.0 can do from the platters. You're putting a 65 MPH speed limit on something that has a 350 HP motor in the chassis :-/

April 25, 2007 3:19 PM

I actually understand the technicalities you express so eloquently above. But for me, in my application, they are all theoretical. The ONLY reality for me, in my application, is my MacBook connected to my external drive (formerly LaCie, now Drobo) tranfering the data I want to transfer. So, any theoretical speed increase of the protocol, or difference because of drive spindle speed, or linear vs. random writes does not matter to me in my situation. I certainly was not saying anything bad about the FireWire 800 protocol, only that in my situation I was surprised to not enjoy it's benefits. And, I wonder how many other people think they are getting benefits that, in practice (not theory), they aren't. Thanks for the link and the comments. Greatly appreciated.

April 25, 2007 6:45 PM

For you, in using a MacBook, this could indeed be something you would not notice. But that's largely because laptop drives are slow (there is only a single 7200 RPM laptop drive that I'm aware of -- it's a 100 GB drive). For people who are using desktop systems, these days they typically come with larger, faster drives that could saturate the USB 2.0 bus but likely could not saturate a FW 800 bus. For backup or archival purposes this would likely not be a problem -- but if people wanted to do video editing or something then the Drobo would probably not be an option. I've been to a number of low-budget shops where they do video editing on Macs, and they are a morass of Firewire hard drives (lots of La Cie drives). I was sorta surprised and appalled at the mess -- 30 drives, labeled, on a shelf with content that is not backed up is just asking for pain. Drobo drives could be an interesting option if they could keep up -- "keep up" really depends on content type (for example, FW 800 cannot handle uncompressed HD video -- typically Fibre Channel is necessary for that speed). Anyway might be worth people trying with the current product and seeing how it works... eventually ;-) I was testing my ReadyNAS and was able to get a sustained 30 MB/sec on reads and writes over GigE with 256 KB blocks... better than I'd expected.

April 29, 2007 4:48 PM

Whether you understand it or not isn't the issue. The issue is that your "practical" test is somewhat non-representative of results that someone without the limiting factors would experience. For instance, even in a file copy test, if I have an Intel iMac, I'll see a *huge* increase in file transfer speed. So, while the article is amusing, using a G3 laptop just sort of invalidates any point you're trying to make...and to the non-techies out there, its rather disingenuous. It sounds like you're really trying to knock on the firewire protocol itself (and prove how superior USB 2 is ::rolleyes::) instead of laying blame where it really belongs--using a 5 year old laptop to try and do testing. So, please repeat testing on a machine from the modern era, and maybe even try to get out of protocol evangelism (my guess is to try and paste over missing features in your product). Too bad your product *doesn't* have firewire, NAS or >2TB volume capabilities. I'll be watching to see when you add some of those features--until then, I'll stick with my old NAS (with Gigabit & jumbo frames) which pushes data to my home media devices (Xbox360, AppleTV, Dlink, etc) without requiring that any of my desktops to be powered up.

May 1, 2007 4:40 AM

The test was performed with a five month old Macbook Pro with 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo and 2 GB of RAM. The reference I made to my old G3 was when I first discovered and was "sold on" FireWire 800. The purpose of my blog was nothing so nefarious as you suggest other than to express clear surprise over the lack of speed gain for 1394b in my application, with my equipment. My comments notwithstanding, I remain a person who prefers FireWire because I have had many years of good luck with it and I have too many ancillary devices on my USB hub.

By the way, Data Robotics chose USB2.0 after a survey of about 800 people indicated it would be the interface of preference of about three-quarters of them. That said, we always intended to have a FireWire product. The only questions was which to do first because doing both would have delayed the product introduction. We chose USB2.0 first based on that research. I'm sure there will be a Drobo with FireWire in the future, but we do not have a release date for that product as of yet.

May 2, 2007 7:05 PM

Peter- Is the Drobo planned to be a single-user single-machine storage solution indefinitely? Or are there any plans to give it gigabit and make it a NAS? I was watching the demo video for the Drobo, and I got more and more excited about your product, and I was heartbroken when I realized it was USB only. All this discussion of USB vs Firewire is interesting, but gigabit is even better, especially in this age of home media and streaming. Is there a roadmap out there for the future of Drobo? If this was networked, I'd be calling its praises from the rooftops and insisting that everyone I know buy one immediately.

May 2, 2007 7:07 PM

It is what it is, for now. There are NAS alternatives as I'm sure you're aware -- look at the Drobo forums for a discussion of them. Also, there is the option of connecting the Drobo to an Airport Extreme and using its disk sharing.

May 2, 2007 7:15 PM

Yeah, but the Drobo is way cooler than the NAS alternatives I've seen.  :)  I was just looking for a roadmap.  Is this to say that there's no plans to ever expand the Drobo into NAS?  Your "for now" is a bit cryptic.

 

May 2, 2007 10:01 PM

There are plenty of network attached USB hubs out there.  Turning the Drobo into a NAS is a simple affair.

As for >2TB partitions...  Well, they would be nice, but at the moment, this is the price you pay...  I am not sure of the technicalities, but I am sure there is a reason...  Isn't there?

Ok, so yeah, what is the reason?  Why can't the drive just redeclair its new capacity?  I mean...  I don't know...  Yeah,...  The 2TB thing is a pain...  But really excited about this product.  Getting one soon... 

June 19, 2007 5:31 PM

Also -- USB doesn't do well with multiple devices on the bus. FireWire does -- it allows the bandwidth of the bus to be partitioned much more efficiently. I suspect you'll really want to have one USB bus per Drobo. Of course, splitting drives across FW busses is generally a good idea, too, if performance is the only goal.

January 3, 2008 1:29 AM

This thread is now quite old, but like you I've been an Apple enthusiast for as long as I can remember. I've used FireWire, well before it become available as a standard option on Pro machines and now use FireWire 800 (IEEE1394b) extensively. I agree with you that the use of FireWire 800 for trivial tasks such as those described above, especially with your hardware (ie consumer level & laptop based machines) shows little to no benefit, but on Pro machines or even the new Ali iMacs which come bundled with these interfaces, the use of FireWire 800 with the appropriate hardware reaps a huge benefit. My setup includes the use of an external RAID device where I strip across 4 disks. Without the use of FireWire 800, I would see very little benefit striping my data. I don't regularly copy a 5.42GB folder from an internal to an external drive, nor do I think it's a good test of the interface, but I do transfer this amount and more of data through the use of virtualisation and video feeds in a much shorter timeframe. Without the use of FireWire 800, this would be impossible.

January 18, 2008 5:50 PM

What's even funnier is that the same test to a Drobo would take about 20 minutes to read or write the file! :)

Discussion:    Add a Comment | Back to Top | Comments 1-12 of 12 | Latest Comment

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